I know we have had disscusions on this and have come to an agreement that grace is not opposed to effort...but i was reading this morning in Romans 9 and came across a few verses that clash with this belief...it was Romans 9:15-16
"For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom i have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
so...what does this mean? are we wrong and it just doesnt matter what we do, and it is all up to God to show his mercy and compassion on those he wishes to when he wishes to? and so does this then make effort and desire for our God usless?
or do we continue to be like Christ as it also says in the Bible and continue to desire Him and put forth an effort to know him and everything?
11 comments:
Don't go hyper-Calvinist on me now!
It is all context, Aaron. What is the larger context in which these verses come?
You might try reading the chapter in The Message version. It may be easier to understand. (Romans is a hard book!) You can get lots of different translations at bible.org.
It is all true, we just have to figure it out. It is most definitely true that without grace we can do nothing. But as Dallas Willard has said: A person's faith in Jesus is revealed in what he does after he realizes that there is nothing he can do. I have also quoted him as saying: While it is true that we can do nothing apart from Jesus, if we do nothing, it will most assuredly be without Jesus. Do you get what he means?
Check out verse 32. What do you make of it?
In v.32 I focused on "pursue it by faith." Pursue is not a passive word. Kind of like seek. It is an active process, requiring some effort.
It has been a while since I studied Romans, but at least part of the context is that Paul is lamenting that Isreal has not accepted Christ and the Gentile have. So he is going into this explanation of how this happened, summed up in vs 30-33.
So, I would not look to Romans Chapter 9 for guidance on the relationship between effort and Grace, because that is not what Paul is addressing there.
Why not go to places in the bible where Paul or others do address this? There are lots of them.
Another thing to think about. The passage you cite is one that supports predestination. There are other passages which support free will.
You will never reconcile the two (it is like driving a car around a culdesac over and over). Both positions are in the bible.
Okay, let me take a stab at this again.
It essentially says that the Gentiles obtained salvation (righteousness)by faith; but Israel did not because they did not pursue it by faith but by works.
Grace and mercy originates with God, not through our desires or effort.
Conclusion: You cannot obtain salvation by works. How do you get salvation? Through faith.
The next logical question would be what kind of faith? Abraham was made righteous by his faith. What kind of faith did he have? Did he believe the right set of doctrines? How was his faith evident or demonstrated?
hey guys,
i like reading this stuff, because it is all stuff i'm learning or learned about here at the christian college. aaron, mark is right. romans is very hard...but it is cool to see you struggle with it.
the idea of grace comes to light in ephesians 2:1-10. we did a big greek study on this passage. it was very interesting to see that the idea of grace is something that continues now in our lives. "for it is by grace you have been saved..." "this is not from yourself..." "not by works.."
it ends by saying that we are God's workmanship, created to do good works. confusing right. so its not works, but we are suppose to do works.
the ideas of mercy, grace, and works should all be present in the life a Christian. there was a past action (God's mercy) that has continuing results (grace and good works).
therefore because of who God is He wants us to be in a grace relationship with Him (Jesus makes this possible) and then inside of this context, yes, we are suppose to and were meant to do good works.
so in our lives what the deuce does this mean? we have or should have a mind set of grace with all people, and then compelled by this grace we should do good to others. simple as that, yet somehow the simple can be very hard, afterall we are dealing with other fallen people like us.
you are on the right trail though aaron. and mark thanks for being a mentor to my bro.
Right on Loren!
We need to struggle with this whole line of thinking. Our righteousness needs to surpass that of the Pharisee's, Jesus said. So it is not just a matter of doing good things. On the other hand, we should not just be passive, waiting for grace to rain down. So that is the challenge. There is a danger of doing good in a wrong way. There is also a danger of not acting out of a fear of doing it in the wrong way.
What's a guy to do besides being confused? More needs to be said about this. I think it is a matter of the heart.
Sounds like you got it Aaron.
Do you know how it is that we err when it comes to doing good things? How is it that people with good intentions end up being like the pharisees and become works oriented in the wrong way?
For that matter, how is it that a believer in Jesus can do little as far as doing good? Your average church goer lives a fairly self-absorbed life, taking care of #1 and doing little as far what James calls true religion? The needs are there (an obvious example would be the 20,000 kids in Pulaski Co going hungry every month, not to mention all the other needs - physical, emotional, spiritual).
If you can answer this, you are well on your way.
Yes, it is that, but probably a deeper problem is at work.
Check out Matthew 23:28. The Pharisees had a heart problem. Remember, the heart is that part of ourself that interfaces with God. Before the new birth, the heart is disconnected from God. After the new birth, the heart has the opportunity to connect with God, not automatically, but through some process of grace and practice. Doing good things without connecting and responding at the heart level can lead to works that are not based on faith, but some other motive. That is how legalism works. We can do what is the "law" (which can be good and right things) while being disconnected from God in the heart. Now I am not sure the Pharisee were doing good works. The seemed to be doing spiritual disciplines, at least ourwardly, without good works.
Same thing for the believer who is not doing much. If they were connected and responding from the heart, they would at least be aware of their sin as it relates to their selfish life and would have the opportunity to let grace do its work and motivate them to good works.
If you buy into this analysis, then we are back to how do you connect and respond from the heart?
Your catching on! But what do you practice?
Check out Peter:
For this very reason, make every effort to...
2 Peter 1:5
Notice the "effort" encouragement.
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